Klingons and tobacco

[kratnor]

posted on 3-27-2003 at 06:07 AM

Klingons and tobacco

It is an accepted fact that Klingons are the gourmands of the galaxy. Good food and drink are as essential to our lifestyle as battle. SO..in our pursuit of the gustatory delights why not consider tobacco? I don't mean the chain smoking habits of tera'ngan film noir, but the after dinner cigar, or the aromatic pipe. Both the original series and TNG were very PC in avoiding the subject but it seems unlikely that the genus Nicotiana whould be totally absent, especially from alien cultures. Could there be a New Havana colony on some tropical world exporting hand rolled tubes of smoking pleasure? Tins of dark aged pressed pipe tobbacco from a New Virginia colony? Perhaps some klingons would enjoy smoking a bowl of burley, and Saurian brandy after feasting on heart of wild targh. Mmmmm good.
kra'tnor
 

[Kesvirit]

posted on 3-27-2003 at 08:30 AM

Klingons really do take the "We're number one!" attitude to heart, don't they. :rolleyes: I believe the title of "The Gourmands of the Galaxy" actually goes to the Orions...

There have been examples of using incense both as a relaxant and as a sexual stimulant; this would argue for the use of inhalants for both medicinal and recreational purposes.

However, unless Klingons are immune to cancer and respiratory ailments I would think that active combatants would avoid tobacco out of a need to maintain themselves in top fighting condition. If it were in widespread use, I suspect it would be reserved for ceremonial use or other special occasions.

Concentrated nicotine is used as a rat poison and insecticide. Perhaps it is used by assasins. Or in death rituals. (Isn't everything Klingon ritualistic? :rolleyes: ) Or as a proscribed form of suicide in certain situations.

Perhaps tobacco leaves are fermented into wine, thus combining the "after dinner brandy and cigar" into one foul glass. The mind boggles at the possibilities.

(For that matter, the genus Cannabis also grows wild as a weed and is used in many forms for many purposes in many cultures. Both the original series and TNG were very "PC" -- by Kahless' livers, how I hate that phrase -- in avoiding the subject. Could there be a New Maui on some tropical world exporting hand rolled tubes of smoking pleasure? Sticky wads of dank fresh bud from a New Humbolt colony? Perhaps some Klingons would enjoy smoking a bowl of hash through Romulan ale before feasting on, well, everything. Mmmmm good. )

Lady K'Zin points out that different alien races don't necessarily have the same reaction to various plant toxins. Just as not all cats react to catnip nor Humans to ergot, it does not necessarily follow that Klingons whether Imperial or fusion, have identical metabolisms or reactions to food or drink (or smoke).

The flip side of this is that Klingons as a group enjoy such recreational Human staples as "kaffei" and chocolate, and are just as prone to developing a serious taste/jones for both, and ratkajino has become quite popular among Humans. Both Humans and Klingons drink prune juice for medicinal purposes. But while Humans do so under duress and out of need, but Klingons chug the stuff with gusto.

To summarize: 1) the reasons individuals of any species have for ingesting anything are as varied as the individuals themselves and go far beyond the pruposes of sustinence, and 2) forget gravity -- deliberate foolhardiness in the pursuit of a good time seems to be the one univeral that ties us all together in making us forget about gravity. :lol:

- Kesvirit
 

[qurgh]

posted on 3-28-2003 at 02:09 PM

Originally posted by Kesvirit
However, unless Klingons are immune to cancer and respiratory ailments I would think that active combatants would avoid tobacco out of a need to maintain themselves in top fighting condition. If it were in widespread use, I suspect it would be reserved for ceremonial use or other special occasions.

Thats intresting you say that. We have seen in the shows that many Klingons aren't in peek physical condition. We see fat Klingons, thin Klingons, tall Klingons, short Klingons. All are warriors. Also in many military groups on this planet smoking is considered normal because it can greatly help reduce the stress of the military lifestyle.

Oh, and I believe they have a cure for cancer in the 24th century. If they can mend a bone with a lightbeam and make it right as rain or teleport you 1000s of miles it should be pretty easy to beam out cancer cells or have some little lightbeam device that kills cancer cells.

Also, I'm a smoker so I think that a Klingon sitting down and smoking a gnarly looking pipe with some strange herb in it would be cool. They burn stuff in fires while sitting in caves so they can "see Kahless" who knows what else Klingons might inhale for spiritual or relaxation purposes.

[Klythe]

posted on 3-28-2003 at 03:07 PM

Fat Klingons exist, but they are not warriors. K'mpec was powerful enough to have other warriors fight for him, General Koord was much the same, only he had no one to fight as no one wanted his job.
 

[kratnor]

posted on 4-11-2003 at 03:10 AM

Klingons and tobacco

Ha! Would a Klingon warrior worry about the possible toxic effects of some herb? The Klingon tea ceremony celebrates the fact that death is an experience best shared. Drinking the toxic tea is a liberating experience, and reminds us that death sits on our nose. Tobacco would not be considered in that class due to the strength of the Klingon physique.
Kesvirit correctly raises the topic of other herbs, besides tobacco being enjoyed. Canabis is widely appreciated in the Empire. One race's spice is another race's drug. In fact a certain reptilian race considers ginger to be the ultimate in psychotrophic substances.
kra'tnor

[Kesvirit]

posted on 4-11-2003 at 05:28 AM

Originally posted by Kesvirit However, unless Klingons are immune to cancer and respiratory ailments I would think that active combatants would avoid tobacco out of a need to maintain themselves in top fighting condition. If it were in widespread use, I suspect it would be reserved for ceremonial use or other special occasions.

quoth qurgh Thats intresting you say that. We have seen in the shows that many Klingons aren't in peek physical condition. We see fat Klingons, thin Klingons, tall Klingons, short Klingons.

We have? How can this be when the Paraborg casting policy requires that all male actors in Klingon roles be at least 6'2"? And Grilka was a Klingon, singular.

All are warriors.

*sigh* Must we got through all that yet again? Not all Klingons are warriors. Some are mechanics. Some are scientists. Some are farmers. Some are diplomats, cooks, merchants, artisans, servitors, manufacturers, surgeons... There are more things in heaven and the Empire, qurgh, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Also in many military groups on this planet smoking is considered normal because it can greatly help reduce the stress of the military lifestyle.

Normal does not equal "good". (Often it is quite the opposite.) What is arguably the most powerful and influential military force on Terra is restricting its use in an attempt to phase out the practice altogether per Army Regulation (AR) 600-63 and Marine Corps Order (MCO) 5100.28

Oh, and I believe they have a cure for cancer in the 24th century.

They have? I am far from having seen every episode in the franchise, and would like to read further on the procedure and the threory behind it. What is the one's source?

If they can mend a bone with a lightbeam and make it right as rain or teleport you 1000s of miles it should be pretty easy to beam out cancer cells or have some little lightbeam device that kills cancer cells.

That is a non-sequitor. The ability to do one does not guarantee the knowlege or technology necessary for the other. As of the twenty-third century there was no cure available for the common cold. Granted, technology does evolve in the strangest leaps and bounds, and is too market driven for its own good (and ours)...

...I think that a Klingon sitting down and smoking a gnarly looking pipe with some strange herb in it would be cool. They burn stuff in fires while sitting in caves so they can "see Kahless" who knows what else Klingons might inhale for spiritual or relaxation purposes.

The point of my first post in this thread. :rolleyes:

quoth Klythe Fat Klingons exist, but they are not warriors. K'mpec was powerful enough to have other warriors fight for him, General Koord was much the same, only he had no one to fight as no one wanted his job.

Not all fighting is done with the body. K'Mpec was smart enough to realize that the mind can also be a powerful weapon.

I could almost pity Koord. He was indeed in a sorry state: imagine ending one's career with such a whimper, being kicked upstairs like that. Crawling into the bottle only compounded his difficulties.

- Kesvirit

[K Eglaelin]

posted on 5-2-2003 at 11:54 PM

Tobacco, Drugs and Slavery

I think there are many reasons why a Klingon would not use such a plant as tobacco.

1. The use of tobacco increases the amount of both methane and carbon dioxide in the blood. People who smoke regularly have a carbon dioxide level 33% higher than non-smokers. Therefore, using tobacco weakens the Warrior.

2. The use of tobacco is addictive. An addiction, any addiction, weakens the will of the Warrior. The inability to control one's addiction would make the Warrior weak. Klingon's drink alcohol as a ritual and as a bonding event (in much the same way that some Japanese do).

3. The use of any drug that decreases one's awareness weakens the Warrior. Cannabis is a central nervous system depressant. It also causes a sensory separation from the world. A Warrior who is not aware of the world around him/her is soon to be a dead one.

In general the use of any addictive substance makes one a slave. A Klingon can be many things. However, Slave and Klingon do not mix.

Just my opinion.

K'Eglaelin
 

[kratnor]

posted on 5-3-2003 at 04:15 AM
:lol: You are confusing tera'ngan, or Human, physiology with tlhIngan. Humans are weak and often have this addiction problem you mention, but Klingons are slaves to nothing, except battle. A Klingon can consume things that would make a Human implode, and then only belch. But what a belch! I've experienced Klingon belches that have set off a room's sprinkler systems.
kra'tnor
 

[Kesvirit]

posted on 5-4-2003 at 04:31 AM

"HIq veqlargh"; The Beauty of the Belch

quoth kratnor :lol: You are confusing tera'ngan, or Human, physiology with tlhIngan.

Humans and Klingons share similarities as well as differences. Both require large amounts of oxygen -- Klingons more than Humans -- and methane is toxic to both. If the one can think of any conceivable physiological mechanism that would allow an organism to subsist on both, this one would very much like to hear it. :rolleyes:

Humans are weak and often have this addiction problem you mention, but Klingons are slaves to nothing, except battle.

And glory, and a sense of personal infallability.

quoth K'Eglaelin Klingon's drink alcohol as a ritual and as a bonding event(in much the same way that some Japanese do).

Many Klingons (and for that matter, Japanese) take alchohol far beyond the realms of ritual use and social adhesive to become tokhe straav'i to the "HIq veqlargh". Kor drank away his reputation (and what little sense he had); Koord drank away his career; Duras and his operatives knew of K'Mpec's excessive dedication to the, er, grape well enough to use it as the agent of his destruction; Kozak was so habitually faced that he inadvertantly undertook the Heghba'.

quoth kratnor A Klingon can consume things that would make a Human implode, and then only belch. But what a belch! I've experienced Klingon belches that have set off a room's sprinkler systems.

:lol: ! Were these belches your own, or were they generated by your comrades?
In my youth, I worked alongside Humans who had to be kept away from any potential source of static electricity lest their belches set the very oxygen in the atmosphere ablaze...

Hmm. "A Klingon can consume things that would make a Human implode, and then only belch"... If substances that cause Humans to implode cause Klingons to "explode"... Erutation is but a simple expulsion of pent-up digestive gasses... Think of what marvelous weaponry we could make if only we could harness the destructive force of all those Klingon belches! It would make the carnage caused by a group of the Empire's most ruthless marines look like the antics of a litter of tika cats! }}>:-D

- Kesvirit
 

[Klythe]

posted on 5-9-2003 at 05:07 AM

Kai K'Eglaelin! This is the best argument I have seen. Klingons are organisms like any other. Klingons do absorb oxygen from the air they breathe and the also exhale waste gasses including Carbon Dioxide. More CO2, less O2 less performance.

Tobacco would not be considered in that class due to the strength of the Klingon physique.

Exactly. There is no reason to consume tobacco. It does not test your strength. What it does do is give you a temporary feeling of relaxation and well being. Such trivialities belong solely to the soft skinned Earthers.

Kafei and Raktaj used to make Raktajino are stimulants. They speed the heart, the mind if not the whole of body. This is desired when talking with one who may prove to be an oppenent(which really is everyone, but some more than others) even if the tone is casual, that is when they are most likely to guide you into a trap.

Canabis is widely appreciated in the Empire. One race's spice is another race's drug. In fact a certain reptilian race considers ginger to be the ultimate in psychotrophic substances.
kra'tnor

Do you have any evidence of this so-called wide appreciation? I have not tried it and I do not know any Klingons who have, but I grew up on a colonyworld and spent my shoreleaves studying. I remember deep in the corners of my mid that Klingons need a certain amound of Arsenic in their diet, but nothing on Canabis.

If Canabis does not have the same effect on Klingons as it does on humans, can you explain what effect it does have on Klingons, and why it is popular?

If Canabis has anything like the reaction it does in humans, I know of few who would want to use it (beyond perhaps a single time to satisfy any initial curiousity). Let me see, you inhale the smoke(see Carbon Dioxide above), and you begin to experience an altered state of consciousness, where you are less concerned with things that you are normally very concerned about (because if you don't, you may be considered weak or careless, both fatal flaws that anyone who wants your position will gladly take advantage of.) And if you should survive long enough for the 'high' effects to wear off, you become suddenly very hungry, and have to fight for more food, making more enemies than ou would otherwise need to... Certainly no crewmember I know of would be so foolish to try this during a standard duty rotation. Perhaps on shore leave, but even on leave you still have your enemies, who are happy to see that you never return to the ship...

Both Humans and Klingons drink prune juice for medicinal purposes. But while Humans do so under duress and out of need, but Klingons chug the stuff with gusto.

I know of only one person whp was called a Klingon that drank prune juice. I do not judge an empire of warriors based on one who was raised by Earthers and spent more time with Terranganpu' than with Klingons. Worf is more human than Klingon as far as behavior. And the whole prune juice thing was another example of the ma-cheese-mo self parody that Wof has become. No wonder he's a parahai, its a good thing he isn't allowed to corrupt our youth!

Oh, and I believe they have a cure for cancer in the 24th century. I think there was a throwaway line to that effect in the series premere of TNG. That and Admiral McCoy being 120 er something...

However, Klingon medicine is much different that medicine in the Federation. Phlox pointed ou Hypocrates was not a Denobulan, and he certainly wasn't a Klingon. 'First do no harm' is a nonstarter for Klingon Medicine, as it is usually the doctor that administrates the agonizer in the absense of a full fledged interrogator.

Unlike Earthers, Klingons do not treat all wounds out of some silly obsessive need to rid the world of pain. Pain is an important part of Klingon life. Attempts are made to preserve Klingon life when the warrior has not fought his final battle. Plagues and epidemics are agressively fought against to prevent as few Klingons from dying ignoble deaths to to factors they cannot reasonably hope to overcome, but on an individual level diseases and degenerations are not treated unless there is a reason to. If the patient is replacable, nature takes its course and the weak one is selected against. His weak genes are not propagated. If there is a reason, or the patient has sufficient influence or resources to acquire treatment, then if treatment is available, he may yet live to fight again or pass his genes on, allowing future generations to seperate the genes that brought the one glory, from the ones which caused the weakeness.

Doing something that you know will make you weak as an old man, such as working in on a leaky engine is not always avoidable. But to do so for a soft luxurious feeling that you get from tobacco... I don't buy it, not even of it was on sale for .001 of a darsek.

They burn stuff in fires while sitting in caves so they can "see Kahless" who knows what else Klingons might inhale for spiritual or relaxation purposes.

I will accept spiritualism... I never did buy into the Cult of Kahless, but when you are alone in a cave and you are seeking an altered state of consciousness, that is a much different situation than kicking back and having a bowl to relax. Do you line your bed with soft material to relax? If pillows are considered a weakness, when they are not known to have any negative physiological side effects by thier presence (and possibly even have positive physical side effects), I don't think that tobacco or any other smoked plant matter would be regarded as anything but an act of one who would soften to a weakness, a weakness that the one might enslave themself with if allowed to continue. Thus, killing them before they can enslave themselves would be considered doing both the empire and the impaired individual a favour, by allowing the one to die in battle as a free warrior rather than to be put down like a rabid animal after enslaving themselves for a series of unnecessary unnatural minor pleasures.
 

[qurgh]

posted on 5-13-2003 at 12:34 PM

Originally posted by Kesvirit

All are warriors.

*sigh* Must we got through all that yet again? Not all Klingons are warriors. Some are mechanics. Some are scientists. Some are farmers. Some are diplomats, cooks, merchants, artisans, servitors, manufacturers, surgeons... There are more things in heaven and the Empire, qurgh, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Wow.. been a while since I posted but I ended up here from /. Wierd...

Anyway, Klingons can be warriors and be other things too. Don't take the word warrior so literal. You can be a warrior cook, every meal you cook is like a battle against the ingrediants. We know that every transaction with a merchant is like a battle, listen to Power Klingon for more on that.

Ritualized combat, be it with a paint brush, mixing spoon, scaple, customer, factory machine or anything else, is a part of Klingon culture.

I guess I need a word for "person who has a culture that involves ritual or stylized combat when performing tasks"... Hmm, maybe I already have that word. Klingon!

tlhIngan maH!

[qurgh]

posted on 5-13-2003 at 12:47 PM

Originaly posted by qurgh They burn stuff in fires while sitting in caves so they can "see Kahless" who knows what else Klingons might inhale for spiritual or relaxation purposes.

Originally posted by Klythe I will accept spiritualism... I never did buy into the Cult of Kahless, but when you are alone in a cave and you are seeking an altered state of consciousness, that is a much different situation than kicking back and having a bowl to relax. Do you line your bed with soft material to relax? If pillows are considered a weakness, when they are not known to have any negative physiological side effects by thier presence (and possibly even have positive physical side effects), I don't think that tobacco or any other smoked plant matter would be regarded as anything but an act of one who would soften to a weakness, a weakness that the one might enslave themself with if allowed to continue. Thus, killing them before they can enslave themselves would be considered doing both the empire and the impaired individual a favour, by allowing the one to die in battle as a free warrior rather than to be put down like a rabid animal after enslaving themselves for a series of unnecessary unnatural minor pleasures.

Firstly my line was about tobacco, not MJ.
Tobacco can be a stimulet to some people, I know it is for me.

I think the point I was trying to make is that Klingons do burn things and breath in the fumes. Neither Tobacco nor Canabis would grow on Qo'noS (not in a "couldn't" sense) as they are plants that are indiginus to Earth. Klingons obviously have planets to burn that give them some kind of trip. Wether they would do this on a regular basis or only once or twice would most likely depend on what they do/who they are.

Cleric are more likely to do it often than warriors on a ship. I guess the idea of a Klingon sitting back and smoking a pipe (tobacco) comes more from my Tolkien background. I can see an old wise Klingon talking to a younger Klingon over a bloodwine and a pipe of Old Kahless
But thats just me.

As a final note to this thread I believe that, like most things in Fandom, we will always have both sides of this fence. Some will think that Klingons smoking anything is silly or very rare others will think that Klingons smoking things would be normal and regular. The divide is most likely between smokers and non-smokers IRL.

I say if you want to be a smoking Klingon, be it and have fun, just don't blow smoke in the face of the non-smoking Klingon. And for the non-smoking Klingon, don't jump on the smoking Klingon, unless s/he blows smoke at you, then you can hit them with a painstick... and that will lead to things that are beyond the scope of this post.

Qapla'!
 

[qaS]

posted on 5-29-2003 at 07:29 PM

Klingons and Tobacco

I, as a definate trekkie, klingon lover, and resident of a state where tobacco accounts for the major part of our income (horse racing is the other), i'd like to bring to light a few things that i have yet to see introduced on this thread.

a ) in LotR, wizards, hobbits, dwarves, elves, men, they all smoke pipe-weed. the Punisher smokes, as does the Kingpin. in fact, i think out of our popular heros, only Captain America, Captain Planet, and Robocop haven't at least tried it. it's a staple of human fiction.

b ) as far as Klingons are concerned, brak'lul should be considered. they have 8 chambered hearts, two livers, and twice the ribs, so if a klingon got lung cancer, i'm sure the loss of one (or even a pair of lungs) wouldn't hamper them too much. furthermore, there's no evidence to support the fact that it would even affec t them in that manner.

[qurgh]

posted on 5-29-2003 at 08:52 PM

I think The Lord of the Rings has been the biggest influence on me when it comes to fictional characters smoking. Tolkien was a pipe smoker, which is why his characters smoke pipes. He enjoyed it and so do they.

How does that affect us? Well, if we make a fictional character (our personas) and we smoke (note the royal we there) then there is nothing to stop that character from being a smoker.

Klingons like to drink, and their drinks are more potent than anything Humans make. So why would it be unimaginable to think that Klingons would like to smoke something, and it would most likely be more potent than anything Humans smoke. I would say thats it's unlikely to be niccoteen based, but I'm sure that if someone on Qo'noS found a plant, that when burned makes you feel good, Klingons would do it. Maybe not all Klingons, just as not all Klingons drink. But I wouldn't rule it out completely, a number of different cultures on Earth independently discovered smoking, so it's not a unique occurance.

[Klythe]

posted on 5-31-2003 at 10:19 PM

My all means, let's make decisions about how one sci-fi alien species acts based on Fantasy, Super Hero and Criminal genres... Yes. That makes sense. First off, every single example you have listed comes from a place with the word 'Earth' in it. Klingons are not from Earth. As mentioned before, who knows what effects tabacco or other inhalents will affect Klingon Physiology. My point is for given physiological response the Klingon culture will respond in a very different manner than it does for Earthers. Physiologically speaking an 8-chambered heart would be more prone to failure than a 4 chambered heart. I don't see how that provides redundancy...

Forgive me for bring up the design principles which seem to define the Klingons even accross multiple media.

Klingons like to drink, and their drinks are more potent than anything Humans make.

It's not hard when terrans make most of thier stuff from Synthahol... I thought we had already establish that Alcohol is used for social and festive purposes. Look at how it's used on screen, an all-night drinking party before the contest to weed out would-be participants, some toasts to victory or in memory of the past, and occasional abuse to show that Klingons can have too much alcohol, and drink for the wrong reasons.

The social ritual for tobacco use is the 'smoke break'. This human ritual allows those who participate to take a break from thier duties for 15 minutes to travel to a smoking area, smoke, and talk about trivial matters with friends.

We do not see Klingons taking 'smoke break' rituals. We also do not see Star Fleet crew taking a smoke break. It seems the 'fleeters talk idly to each other without needing to smoke... Klingons seem to save such behavior for off-duty hours and meal times. Unlike alcohol, inhalents do not seem to have any relevant social support for a warrior on duty. Perhaps there is some rituals amoungst the clerics(or charlatans for those that don't believe them) at Borath, but even the civilians we see, in the Romulan colony and the pariah's nursemaid there was no smoking there, except perhaps to cure meats for storage....

Well, if we make a fictional character (our personas) and we smoke (note the royal we there) then there is nothing to stop that character from being a smoker.

Tolkien created the whole universe in which his characters lived, he can make it as acceptable or unacceptable for his characters to smoke as he liked. We are all playing in Roddenberry's sandbox, and his rules (and paramounts by extension) define the basis on which most of us for the most part agree is the way Klingons are(even if we chose to supplement our ideas from other sources of Klindom) In the universe you choose to put your character in, smoking does not seem to be popular or widespread as it is in ... say... pre-warp Terran Society. You must decide how your character works that in to his life, as the decision is more difficult for him than it would be for Gandalf and Bilbo.

I'm not saying smoking is unheard of in the Empire, only that it isn't popular or largely accepted with special allowances made to facilitate it. Sure qurgh may smoke, but unless he's in totally charge(such as a privateer captain) odds are he is not allowed to smoke on duty, and he certainly is not given special leave for 15 minutes every two hours to do so. He will have to work harder at supplying himself with what he chooses to smoke, finding the appropriate times and places to smoke, and if he wishes it will also be much harder to find fellow smokers to share the ritual...
 

[qurgh]

posted on 6-1-2003 at 05:57 PM

The social ritual for tobacco use is the 'smoke break'. This human ritual allows those who participate to take a break from thier duties for 15 minutes to travel to a smoking area, smoke, and talk about trivial matters with friends.

You are obviously not a smoker since you have no idea what you are talking about. I'm smoking while I write this post, I'm not taking a "smoke break". I smoke to intrease the niccotine levels in my blood which in turn helps reduce my stress levels with life and combat the effects of niccotine addiction, and I enjoy doing it.

Niccotine and alchohol are used in similiar ways, it's just that one is more addictive than the other.

As for "smoke breaks" I know plent of people who take "non-smoke breaks" from work, walk outside and talk trivia with their friends. Taking a break from work does not involve smoking if you don't smoke.

Unlike alcohol, inhalents do not seem to have any relevant social support for a warrior on duty.

Are there only warriors on duty in the Klingon Empire? It seems your version of Klingon socity has two groups of people in it. Warriors and Cleric. Thats very narrow minded.

Tolkien created the whole universe in which his characters lived, he can make it as acceptable or unacceptable for his characters to smoke as he liked. We are all playing in Roddenberry's sandbox, and his rules (and paramounts by extension) define the basis on which most of us for the most part agree is the way Klingons are(even if we chose to supplement our ideas from other sources of Klindom) In the universe you choose to put your character in, smoking does not seem to be popular or widespread as it is in ... say... pre-warp Terran Society. You must decide how your character works that in to his life, as the decision is more difficult for him than it would be for Gandalf and Bilbo.

Just because Roddenberry didn't say "such and such does such and such" doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There are many parts of star trek that Roddenberry didn't talk about which are now considered normal. Roddenberry didn't say anything about Archer or Voyager, but they happened, someone else made them up. Paramount has show a Klingon inhaling chemicals, and it wasn't a Cleric, it was Worf. Roddenberry never said there was a Klingon called Klythe, but there is one. You made it up. Just as I say there is a Klingon called qurgh who smokes. Neither one of us are right or wrong, we are just adding something to the Star Trek universe.

Sure qurgh may smoke, but unless he's in totally charge(such as a privateer captain) odds are he is not allowed to smoke on duty, and he certainly is not given special leave for 15 minutes every two hours to do so. He will have to work harder at supplying himself with what he chooses to smoke, finding the appropriate times and places to smoke, and if he wishes it will also be much harder to find fellow smokers to share the ritual...

Seeing as the character of qurgh is the head of a Klingon house, owns a couple of his own ships and regularly roleplays those ships and that house, I guess there is no problem with his smoking. Also, the KAG ship I'm on is probably 90% smokers as well I'm pretty sure that they have no problem with Klingons smoking either. We had a ship meeting yesterday and we all drank and smoked and no one took "smoke breaks".

Again, as I have said before, this comes down to the non-smokers vs. the smokers. Neither side will win, just as IRL. The Anti-Smoking campaigns in America have made smokers feel like they are carrying the Black Death, which is totally unfair to them. Due to the extreme poltical correctness of that country, which lead to things like proabition, people can't just say, "I don't care, do what ever you want to yourself" and then stay out of other people's lives. They have to tell you that what you are doing is wrong at every oppitunity. We still have freedoms in this country. We can choose what we want and don't want to do. Don't destory my fantasy just because you think that you know better.

As you can the whole smoking thing really annoys me in this country. Once it was all for it, and now it is so anti you see it everywhere you go.

I would like to make a request to the forum moderators to lock this thread and let the issue just sit, since all the major points have been covered already and it will most likely just become a rehashing of the same ideas over and over.
 

[Klythe]

posted on 6-3-2003 at 03:09 PM

I smoke to intrease the niccotine levels in my blood

You misunderstand entirely what I have said. I do not think you are incapable of following an argument. Do not prove me wrong. Just because I am not saying what you expect doesn't mean that I do not know what I am speaking about. In case you missed it, I'm speaking about sociology, you seem to think I'm talking about the process of smoking which I will admit, I am not as well verse in as you.

I did not say that all smoking activity happens during this ritual, or that all smokers engage in ritual. What I said was there appears to be only one widely accepted social ritual involving smoking. What I hopped to show and that you completely missed is the different roles between tobacco and alcohol *in society* not in the individuals life. I have granted that individuals may have thier own motives, and that you may attribute any of those to your character you choose. But the individuals to not dictate society. Society (more, but more often less) dictates what is acceptable for individuals.

As for "smoke breaks" I know plent of people who take "non-smoke breaks" from work, walk outside and talk trivia with their friends. Taking a break from work does not involve smoking if you don't smoke.

Exactly my point. Tobacco smoking is not an essential part of any 21th Century social ritual. And how many religions of this time used wine in thier rituals? I am not promoting alcohol over tobacco, instead my goal is to show your analogy to Klingon use of alcohol is a flawed analogy.

It seems your version of Klingon socity has two groups of people in it. Warriors and Cleric. Thats very narrow minded.

If that accurately represented my position, then it still would be twice as broadly minded as your assertion in this very thread that "All are warriors."

Just because Roddenberry didn't say "such and such does such and such" doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Yes, true. But he set the model, and if we want to get allong with other Klingons we all do our best to fit in with his model We make stuff up as we must, but we try to stay consistant with what we have seen. You created qurgh, and qurgh smokes. You did not create Klingons, and we have seen very little to indicate that Klingons are as socially acceptable to smoking. In fact I have asserted quite the opposite, using principles derived from canon. You have not applied any such principles much less facts to *habitual* tobacco use amongst Klingons. You only site once when a boy who was once Klingon, but was raised by Feddies, smoked something for purposes of having a religious vision.


This may sound like I am mocking you, but I do mean it sincerely, and literally. I want to thank you for smoking IRL. I think it is couragous of you to step forward and willingly pay all those taxes and to put your own health at risk for the betterment of the rest of society. If you didn't smoke, te rest of us would have to pay more in taxes to support government health programs. And my gradually reducing your own lifespan, you leave more in the social security fund for others, keeping the program from collapsing under it's own weight for just a few years longs. I think it is a shame that your contributions are not respected by the politicians who most benefit from your continued smoking. Actually, I have tried to start smoking a few times, but wasn't very good at it. I still smoke a cigar occasionally on festive occasions, but that pales to the efforts you make every day.

That being said, I do not think many actual Klingons would be so noble and selfsacrificing.

[qurgh]

posted on 6-3-2003 at 04:41 PM

Originally posted by Klythe
This may sound like I am mocking you, but I do mean it sincerely, and literally.

Obviously y

(Moderator's Note: The rest of this post and page were lost to hungry spiderbots.)

[Klythe]

posted on 6-8-2003 at 03:01 AM

I regret that I was not more clear, qurgh. I will continue to work on making sure I do not sound sarcastic when I only wish to be ironic... It is a difficult line to find at times...
 

[qurgh]

posted on 6-8-2003 at 03:45 AM

I talking to lot of the Klingons on my ship about this subject and they support my opinion. I respect their opinions since they have been doing the Klingon thing a lot longer than I have and a couple of them have even had works published that have become part of what is considered Klingon canon.

One comment that was made by one of the co-authors of "A budget guide to Klingons" really stuck with me. He said, "Klingons like things that stimulate them and anything that stimulates them would be used. Tobacco is a stimulent so they very well might use it."

Remember, they drink posionous tea, drink huge amounts of alcohol, enjoy large amounts of pain and burn things in fires to get visions. Yes, worf did this, but it seems very unlikely that there just happened to be a place, under a temple, with a fire and a plant to burn that gives Klingons visions. To me it seems logical.

As for qurgh, the reason he smokes is because his grandfather had been a diplomat on a Federation planet that had a small native american population on it (besides others) and he became intrested in their sprituality. He discovered they burned tobacco, and brought some plants back to Qo'noS where he grew them in the house grounds along with several plants used to make a special kind of bloodwine and chechtlhutlh. Smoking was then passed down the generations. It was a orginaly only used during rituals, but slowly it moved out of the ritual and became something that was done at family gatherings. It wasn't done like humans do it, and was smoked in large pipes that were shared amoung the family members there.

As for being sarcastic/ironic, with all the anti-smoking junk thrust into my face on a daily bases, the whole smoking thing is a very personal topic. Anything that seems to be insulting feels like a personal attack, I apologise for insulting you but it did feel like you were not intrested in anyone's opinion any more and were more intrested in mocking me. I understand that that was not your intention and will keep that in mind when posting on this thread.

[Klythe]

posted on 6-19-2003 at 06:17 AM

One comment that was made by one of the co-authors of "A budget guide to Klingons" really stuck with me. He said, "Klingons like things that stimulate them and anything that stimulates them would be used. Tobacco is a stimulent so they very well might use it."

I have read that book. that book is about Klingon fans talking about each other. And yet, I still will accept thier speculation as being as potentially valid as mine. Assuming it can bear the same scruity. All organisms respond to stimulus. Klingons are not special in that regard. But not all stimulus are considered pleasant or acceptable.

I am told by a terran acquintance of mine that silk rubbed against the skin is quite stimulating. But I do not see Klingons stimulating themselves with such soft, wear materials. I see Klingons who sleep on a bed made of the same material as the floor, and perferring it to a soft cushy bed.

Remember, they drink posionous tea, drink huge amounts of alcohol, enjoy large amounts of pain and burn things in fires to get visions.

Yes, but in each of these cases the context is not that of personal gratification and self-stimulation. Poisonous tea is drunk to demonstrate that you are strong. huge amounts of alcohol are consumed to demonstrate you are tireless and have endurance. Incredible Pain is accepted during the Rite of Ascention to prove that you can bear it. Whatever it was that Worf smoked, was appearently part of the cave ritual. Clearly if that is the case, then the permanent residents of the Temple would work to prepare the necessary plants, and to dole them out to those who would perform the cave ritual as needed.

I think that is a good family tradition for your House qurgh. I not that it is used socially, for a purpose. Not habitually or for self-stimulation for pleasures sake.

It is better than Kor's weakness in abusing alcohol to forget himself. That was not tolerated, and Kang put a stop to it immediately and saved his friend Kor from a weakness which would have lead to a ignoble death which the Da'Har master did not deserve.
 

[qoSagh]

Nothing like restarting an old argument to get things going again.

As for the cure for Cancer, that line was in ST5, it was the pain that McCoy shared with Sybok. Now the cure being Human or at least known of by humans, I can assume that it is also available to Klingons. This is based on two things, first II would have had agents acquire the cure quickly, and second no one loves to share things in a sense of superiority than the humans.

Now as for the Tobacco, if we do not know what effects it would have on the Klingon body, then we don't even really know if it is a carcinogen to Klingons. But most of the arguments in this thread have not been about Klingons at all. They have been based on My Human self likes/dislikes smoking therefore all Klingons would like/dislike smoking. The bit about widely appreciated cannabis, is I am afraid nothing more that someones poor attempt at justifying drug use through klindom.

In real life I am not a smoker, and have lost many relatives to cancer, however I have always pictured Klingons as tolerant of smoking. The image that comes to my mind isn't a pipe in the way we think of it, but of a middle eastern hookah, with a group of Klingons sitting around a bar, warnog in one hand hookah hose in the other. Or perhaps an older Klingon, an epitai or emperor with a hookah next to his chair. I do think that Klingons enjoy all the finer things in life, and this would be just one more option open to them.

On a fandom related note, I have always hated the sight of a Klingon in full armor, standing outside a convention smoking away on cigarettes. That just seems out of character to me.

[Klythe]

    We don't even know if the Klingon body is even susceptible to cancer-like diseases.   Their body chemistry and growth hormones, or whatever other methods of regulating cell growth they might have, may be less vulnerable to malfunction.   We don't know if they even need a cure for cancer.

   But there are other chronic degenerative diseases.   And who knows what may contribute to those...  As far as we know Klingons could be deathly allergic to cheese.  I haven't seen cheese in any of the Klingon dishes we have been seen.  In real life, I enjoy cheese very much, but I don't expect that the bulk of the Klingon Empire would necessarily find cheese as palatable.  We have no canonical, official or even as far as I understand anecdotal evidence of Klingons eating cheese, so I don't assume one way or the other.  I would speculate, given the lack of evidence of cheese in known dishes, and what appeals the klingon palate and what doesn't, that Klingons are not big cheese eaters.   For the same reasons, I don't think they are big smokers either.

[K'Gor tai Reshtarc]

I am Klingon and I smoke! Nuff Said!!

Qapla'!

[qoSagh]

K'Gor, judging the behavior of an entire fictional race based on the personal preference of one portrayer of that race, is absurd. The idea that you are Klingon and you smoke therefore Klingons smoke is about as silly as the claim once made by Dr. Science: Bugs make noise, I make noise, therefore I am a bug.